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Muslim Televangelists - Zakir Naik, Amir Liaqat, etc.

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#61
Sarmad

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This is where you have to be careful and not assume you understand what the Prophet :SAW: said just by googling hadith references. :) Because a translation in English loses the situational and linguistic context.

Yes, numerous authentic ahadith prescribe the death penalty for ridda. This is not merely apostasy, but rather someone who defects and actively opposes Muslims. The context in the Prophet's :SAW: time was people who deserted the flock and flipped sides to fight and oppress the Muslim community. Unfortunately, the jahalaat of some so-called scholars (who are media savvy and get the most attention) has led some to believe that someone whodecides not to follow Islam anymore should be put to death. The silent majority of true scholars needs to do a better job at countering these misperceptions.

#62
Pastafarian

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Sarmad,

I don't dispute with you that controversial opinions echo the loudest and sober moderate opinions are usually not heard as they're not interesting enough, or don't raise eye brows.

Scholars with views that are of the extreme will definitely get more interest rather than the likes with moderate views and interpretations of text.

 

But can you name me any of those Hadiths that I have quoted which can perhaps have been misconstrued, or put in the wrong text?

None of them mention anything about opposing Islam, but merely leaving it or not siding by it anymore.

 

Not to mention, does it make the argument any more moral, that if someone holds a stance against people of a certain faith, is the death penalty still reasonable?



#63
Sarmad

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But can you name me any of those Hadiths that I have quoted which can perhaps have been misconstrued, or put in the wrong text?

None of them mention anything about opposing Islam, but merely leaving it or not siding by it anymore.

 

Not to mention, does it make the argument any more moral, that if someone holds a stance against people of a certain faith, is the death penalty still reasonable?

 

Again, it's because you are only reading ahadith with tunnel vision without studying the context of the discussion and the narration. Doing so is akin to looking at one line of a recipe and thinking you understand the whole dish. Understanding ahadith is a huge undertaking because you have to consult all of the other ahadith that reference the same event, and then study the other ahadith that arose out of the same conversation to understand the context and the meaning. This is what gave rise to schools of thought, as the great scholars like Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik, etc dedicated their whole lives to such an undertaking.

 

For this particular issue, the context becomes very clear if you consult the other ahadith in the collection of Diyat in Sahih al-Bukhari and Abu Dawud. I don't remember the exact reference off hand (Zakir Naik style :P), but I believe it is Book 33 in Abu Dawud where the conversation noted above continues (about the three circumstances in which a Muslim can be killed). The Prophet :SAW: very clearly explained that the death penalty was for those who left Islam and then fought against the Muslims.



#64
Das Reich

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I think pasta man might be right in that the apostate view that you mentioned is only pretty much limited to the western "enlightened" muslims.  



#65
Sarmad

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I think pasta man might be right in that the apostate view that you mentioned is only pretty much limited to the western "enlightened" muslims.  

 

I'm far from being a source of religious knowledge, but what I do know was learned in/from Pakistan. Enlightened, yes. Western, no. :)



#66
maverick86

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This is where the internal Islamic debate comes into play. Some places like Saudi don't care and impose the same law on everyone.

 

In Pakistan, this is not the case as non-Muslims are able to legally purchase alcohol from designated places and consume it privately, etc. Foreign embassies can also have alcohol, pork, etc. within their compounds privately. The reasoning comes from instances from the Sunnah where the Prophet :SAW: used Jewish law for settling disputes and awarding punishment to Jews, rather than imposing Islamic injunctions on them. 

 

Personally, I agree with the second approach. Those who are not Muslims should not be subjected to Islamic law. (Of course, assuming they don't purposefully try to instigate, like camping out in front of a masjid and eating pork or something).

 

that is untrue...thee is numerous occassions where the royal family (and the buffoons from the extended family) do all sorts of 'prohibited things' without being charged for it...



#67
mmmusa8888

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that is untrue...thee is numerous occassions where the royal family (and the buffoons from the extended family) do all sorts of 'prohibited things' without being charged for it...

He meant not forced on them but force on non-muslims residents there

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#68
Sarmad

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^ what he said. Obviously the elite in Saudi and everywhere else for that matter are able to skirt the law and do as they please. Nothing new there, unfortunately.



#69
mmmusa8888

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^ what he said. Obviously the elite in Saudi and everywhere else for that matter are able to skirt the law and do as they please. Nothing new there, unfortunately.

Thats right! there only law is forced on foriegners...
Like there was an incident that many people saw in the capital Riyadh where an indian was reversing his car but was blocked by by someone who left it there...the indian honked at the car and guess wat...this jackass saudi came pulled out a gun and shot him on the knees then told to remember not to honk at a saudi again...guess wat he was a prince...even the law couldnt touch him :no: :tdown:

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#70
fahadzafar

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thanks for sharing its amazing really appreciated


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