Jump to content

Welcome to PakSarZameen Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Lots of atheists, more Muslims, fewer Christians and Jews: this is the new America

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

#21
Das Reich

Das Reich

    Lieutenant

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 166 posts

Technically, it isn't a thing since 'a' means without...



#22
maverick86

maverick86

    Lt. Commander

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 236 posts

No its fine, I completely understand where you are coming from. But this perception is to you and lets say a bunch of people more who deem that yes religion is a bunch of rules just made earlier in the day to make/believe that a higher authority controls you, your life and that in the end the good people will go to Heaven and the bad people will go to Hell. yadayadayada and then as we go on with that methadology, people start to wonder hey why am I even bothering with this penduness and I have every right to live my life. Bad things happen to good people, bad people are living a better life. I dont see that God that my parents tld me about, and the God I prayed to never really is there . Yeah we can go on.

In a nutshell- if you cant see that higher authority, it really doesnt "exist"-
Not a problem. 
You see, people who are really into religion or the fact that they challenge the stuff going on, they DO think about this stuff but in the end of the day these things that I mentioned above.. make sense to them. And this my friend brings me to refer those type of people who really have explored religion ( including me). For some people its blind faith but for many people its a path they come across through years of struggle and search. These people include really literate personalities who have encountered similar barriers and struggles and have thought about the same thing that you are talking about. But I have come across atheists/agnosts who really dont have a lot to say about their belief in no religious category but its just something more like they are just in the midst of finding the right thing. For some people, nothing is better and they wont have to care about it. But for many its not like that and that's where religion comes into place. 

Im not going to talk about Islam here but generally speaking, if religion whatever it maybe, provides a safe and ethical support to an individual, it shouldnt be mocked t or degraded to the least. People relate to religion not only on spiritual bases but actual encounters they come across. You may not have come across any  ( and I dont mean to point fingers or sound mean or arrogant here) but you also do not represent the complete set of people who are actually looking for an answer for the kind of life they are living. Makes sense?

As for your last question 
What you highlighted about all those things, they are ethical problems. You are very educated enough to know better that these things do not really help an individual be it that it is done in secret or openly. Alcohol, whatever it may be, as rich as the wine gets, it has more harm to offer than benefits. Pre marital sex what does it get? More and more children like animal litter but literally no proper family support? And im not throwing darts int he air, im just highlighting what I see here in America. There are numerous studies that have shown that children with no proper family have resorted to other wrong means that has effected societies. So What you are saying is ethically wrong. Religion is supposed to only highlight these things to make a person a more ethical person. Its not a restraint but its merely a guiding tool. The restraint looks bad because of the warnings that come with it [ In Islam its one of the major sins and for that there is an extreme punishment] but if an individual was to assess the whole reasonings with logic and contemplation there wont be a problem :)

I know we can go pages and pages here, but I really dont think we can convince each other so I may stop midway. But I hope that maybe people will be open to religion or the whole teachings rather than just mocking it because they dont feel the same way others do. Its just offensive in my opinion.


 

 

See that is the thought experiment here....i am absolutely for every person believing whatever they want to believe in....its when they impose their views on others that problems arise. I might believe shoaib akhtar is an amazing bowler - you might not - if you mock or criticise my choice....i should retort in kind maybe or let it go....it shouldn't lead to oppression and violence...do you seee where i am going with this?



#23
Electric

Electric

    Disguised Punjaban

  • Moderators
  • 1225 posts

See that is the thought experiment here....i am absolutely for every person believing whatever they want to believe in....its when they impose their views on others that problems arise. I might believe shoaib akhtar is an amazing bowler - you might not - if you mock or criticise my choice....i should retort in kind maybe or let it go....it shouldn't lead to oppression and violence...do you seee where i am going with this?

Yes I do and I dont believe in that as well. We can preach all we want but its our actions that decide the end . Actions AND intentions to be more specific. There are preachers out there who do little with what they publicize, that always brings a bad image to themselves and to their supposedly good deeds.

But when you say oppression. what do you exactly mean?

 


Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Verily, my Salat (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). [6:162]


#24
Ahmad\

Ahmad\

    le hipster

  • Super Mods
  • 3018 posts

See that is the thought experiment here....i am absolutely for every person believing whatever they want to believe in....its when they impose their views on others that problems arise. I might believe shoaib akhtar is an amazing bowler - you might not - if you mock or criticise my choice....i should retort in kind maybe or let it go....it shouldn't lead to oppression and violence...do you seee where i am going with this?

 

I hate to do digress from discussion but I must ask. If this (bold) is to be taken literally then what you think of what gays/atheist/pro-choice movements are doing?  


"But the thing about Ronaldo... Ronaldo could play for Millwall, QPR, Doncaster Rovers or anyone and he'd score a hat-trick. I'm not sure Messi could do it." - Sir Alex Ferguson


#25
Pastafarian

Pastafarian

    Lt. Commander

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 261 posts

I hate to do digress from discussion but I must ask. If this (bold) is to be taken literally then what you think of what gays/atheist/pro-choice movements are doing?  

 

How are they imposing it on others?

If people don't like gay marriage, they don't have to get gay married? lol

 

If people do not want to have an abortion, they don't have to have one? lol

 

How is it imposing it on those who don't want to indulge in it if you're giving people who DO want to get gay marriage the choice to do so. It doesn't affect anyone who doesn't wish to.



#26
Ahmad\

Ahmad\

    le hipster

  • Super Mods
  • 3018 posts

How are they imposing it on others?

If people don't like gay marriage, they don't have to get gay married? lol

 

If people do not want to have an abortion, they don't have to have one? lol

 

How is it imposing it on those who don't want to indulge in it if you're giving people who DO want to get gay marriage the choice to do so. It doesn't affect anyone who doesn't wish to.

 

Haha but the argument is not as miniature as you've put.

 

It's not about getting married or not. Do whatever you want, just don't come out and indulge into preposterous preaching that what others believes in or practice is wrong. Particularly when you can't prove it wrong. 

 

when you make a similar case against religion as something imposing, than why use a different yard stick for this? 


"But the thing about Ronaldo... Ronaldo could play for Millwall, QPR, Doncaster Rovers or anyone and he'd score a hat-trick. I'm not sure Messi could do it." - Sir Alex Ferguson


#27
maverick86

maverick86

    Lt. Commander

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 236 posts

I hate to do digress from discussion but I must ask. If this (bold) is to be taken literally then what you think of what gays/atheist/pro-choice movements are doing?  

 

Peaceful agitation for something is not tantamount to imposition is it?



#28
maverick86

maverick86

    Lt. Commander

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 236 posts

Yes I do and I dont believe in that as well. We can preach all we want but its our actions that decide the end . Actions AND intentions to be more specific. There are preachers out there who do little with what they publicize, that always brings a bad image to themselves and to their supposedly good deeds.

But when you say oppression. what do you exactly mean?

 

by oppression i mean the control that the state of a certain religious or belief related persuasion exert upon people who do not subscribe to the state philosophy without resorting to violence or coercion.



#29
Electric

Electric

    Disguised Punjaban

  • Moderators
  • 1225 posts
Well isnt it oppression everywhere then like in France for example where people have to follow the state's ban on religious freedom? You can find examples everywhere, people with secular, liberal or conservative mindsets. Imposing at gunpoint? Yes that's incorrect but if a country follows a religious code of law instead of man made laws ( lets not get in the discussion of whether or not islamic laws are man made or notthat would deviate us from this topic imo), then citizens or residents of that state should try their best to follow it. My two cents.

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Verily, my Salat (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). [6:162]


#30
Ahmad\

Ahmad\

    le hipster

  • Super Mods
  • 3018 posts

Peaceful agitation for something is not tantamount to imposition is it?

 

That's a matter of perception. Anyone can argue in favor or against it.

 

All I want is for people to be tolerant enough when demanding tolerance, and understand it as a 'matter of perception', before blowing it out of proportion.


"But the thing about Ronaldo... Ronaldo could play for Millwall, QPR, Doncaster Rovers or anyone and he'd score a hat-trick. I'm not sure Messi could do it." - Sir Alex Ferguson


#31
mmmusa8888

mmmusa8888

    Titty Master

  • Super Mods
  • 6235 posts
  • LocationQuebec to Manama
God does not believe in atheists therefore atheists doesnt exist :D

tumblr_n6ppy7jo3C1qfpe3mo2_500.gif


#32
Pastafarian

Pastafarian

    Lt. Commander

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 261 posts

God does not believe in atheists therefore atheists doesnt exist :D

 

That makes absolutely no sense at all.



#33
mmmusa8888

mmmusa8888

    Titty Master

  • Super Mods
  • 6235 posts
  • LocationQuebec to Manama

That makes absolutely no sense at all.


Its actually a quote from my old bud who retired from forum activities....can you guess who?

tumblr_n6ppy7jo3C1qfpe3mo2_500.gif


#34
Pastafarian

Pastafarian

    Lt. Commander

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 261 posts

Its actually a quote from my old bud who retired from forum activities....can you guess who?

 

Can't be arsed



#35
mmmusa8888

mmmusa8888

    Titty Master

  • Super Mods
  • 6235 posts
  • LocationQuebec to Manama

Can't be arsed


Lol! I would luv to see him reply to ur answer ;)
Ill giv u a hint...he is a half :D

tumblr_n6ppy7jo3C1qfpe3mo2_500.gif


#36
maverick86

maverick86

    Lt. Commander

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 236 posts

That's a matter of perception. Anyone can argue in favor or against it.

 

All I want is for people to be tolerant enough when demanding tolerance, and understand it as a 'matter of perception', before blowing it out of proportion.

 

it is not a 'matter of perception' when people's lives are being ruined for ridiculous beliefs....look around you..... for believing that some guy in the sky does not exist...it is death. that is ridiculous....you can agree or disagree with whether gays can have kids or not....or people can chose to ingest something versus somehting else but you cannot say its a matter of perception when basic rights are eroded for a belief system.



#37
Electric

Electric

    Disguised Punjaban

  • Moderators
  • 1225 posts

God does not believe in atheists therefore atheists doesnt exist :D

That is actually wrong to say. Qur'an talks about people who do not believe throughout, although directly doesnt address "atheists". We should keep it intellectual if you are conversing with people of different beliefs.
It is easier to say atheists dont exist but they do because they choose to believe there is no God etc. We cant just throw random statements and expect people to share them and/or respect them.

 


Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Verily, my Salat (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). [6:162]


#38
Electric

Electric

    Disguised Punjaban

  • Moderators
  • 1225 posts

it is not a 'matter of perception' when people's lives are being ruined for ridiculous beliefs....look around you..... for believing that some guy in the sky does not exist...it is death. that is ridiculous....you can agree or disagree with whether gays can have kids or not....or people can chose to ingest something versus somehting else but you cannot say its a matter of perception when basic rights are eroded for a belief system.

Disagreed. I can say the same thing that the way you are looking at "ridiculous beliefs" is also a matter of perception. And when you talk about for not believing in God, is that the only reason people give for making islam look like a heinous and messed up religion  :heh:  It is funny to be honest.  Not sure if anyone has bothered looking up that verse, you dont just hand out death punishment for not believing. There's a whole lot to it involved. But that would be out of topic to discuss right now..

You are still living and so do many ex believers who have renounced religion. It is the same as some Muslims who say they are Muslims but do the same acts that are forbidden. You either renounce it completely through your words or you hide it inside or you say you are a believer of some religion but hardly do one thing that makes you qualify under the category of being under a belief system.. its all the same.


Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Verily, my Salat (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). [6:162]


#39
maverick86

maverick86

    Lt. Commander

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 236 posts

Disagreed. I can say the same thing that the way you are looking at "ridiculous beliefs" is also a matter of perception. And when you talk about for not believing in God, is that the only reason people give for making islam look like a heinous and messed up religion  :heh:  It is funny to be honest.  Not sure if anyone has bothered looking up that verse, you dont just hand out death punishment for not believing. There's a whole lot to it involved. But that would be out of topic to discuss right now..

You are still living and so do many ex believers who have renounced religion. It is the same as some Muslims who say they are Muslims but do the same acts that are forbidden. You either renounce it completely through your words or you hide it inside or you say you are a believer of some religion but hardly do one thing that makes you qualify under the category of being under a belief system.. its all the same.

 

you make an assumption about my beliefs. I am not talking about a scholarly disagreement i am talking about 295-C.....about the Hudood ordinance. I am talking application here which is a big big problem. As for people who are not behaving like 'proper muslims'.... do you? Does anyone ever? have you never lied? have you never interacted with a 'na mehram' ? i mean it is impossible to do things like that these days yet people are unwilling to move forward.

 

As for islam to be a 'messed up' religion there are a bunch of controversial issues that can be raked up....but this is not the platform for that. 

 

My point is simple, live and let live..... let people do what they choose to without policing their every move - hijab no hijab, prayer or prayer, observation of ramazan or not....it should be up to the individual - it should not be enforced by things such as the 'ehteraam-e-ramadan' ordinance. these are just a few, varied things that i have a problem with (what is not in discussion here is religion itself. criticism of that is a separate question which if you please i may broach with you) when it comes to utilizing a certain belief system.....islam, judaism, christianity, rastafarianism, anything under the sun ....when you create a society and a constitution.



#40
mmmusa8888

mmmusa8888

    Titty Master

  • Super Mods
  • 6235 posts
  • LocationQuebec to Manama

That is actually wrong to say. Qur'an talks about people who do not believe throughout, although directly doesnt address "atheists". We should keep it intellectual if you are conversing with people of different beliefs.
It is easier to say atheists dont exist but they do because they choose to believe there is no God etc. We cant just throw random statements and expect people to share them and/or respect them.


OMW! Comon Women I was kiding :no:

tumblr_n6ppy7jo3C1qfpe3mo2_500.gif





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users